Choosing a bathroom renovation contractor in Vancouver is one of the most consequential decisions you’ll make during a remodeling project. The contractor you hire will coordinate demolition, plumbing, electrical work, waterproofing, tiling, cabinetry, fixture installation, permits, inspections, and multiple trades – all within a space where moisture management mistakes can lead to long-term damage that’s expensive to repair.
This article covers how to evaluate bathroom renovation contractors specifically. It won’t address DIY renovation techniques or design trend advice. Instead, it’s written for Vancouver homeowners who are close to hiring a company and want a practical framework for comparing their options, verifying credentials, and avoiding costly mistakes.
The short answer: choosing the right bathroom renovation contractor involves evaluating relevant experience and track record, credentials and insurance, communication and project management style, technical expertise in waterproofing and moisture control, and local knowledge of Vancouver permits, building codes, and strata requirements.
By the end of this guide, you will be able to:
- Evaluate contractor qualifications using specific, verifiable criteria
- Compare bathroom renovation quotes on scope, not just price
- Recognize red flags that signal unreliable contractors
- Understand Vancouver-specific permit, strata, and building requirements
- Make an informed decision about which contractor fits your project type, budget, and property
Understanding Bathroom Renovation Contractor Selection
Selecting a bathroom renovation contractor is fundamentally different from hiring someone for a painting job or a deck build. Bathrooms involve the intersection of plumbing, electrical systems, waterproofing, ventilation, and finish work – all within a compact, moisture-intensive space. Getting any one of those elements wrong can result in property damage, mold, code violations, or renovations that need to be redone within a few years.
The Role of a Bathroom Renovation Contractor
A bathroom renovation contractor manages or performs the full scope of work required in a bathroom remodel: demolition, framing modifications, plumbing rough-ins and finish plumbing, electrical (lighting, ventilation, GFCI outlets), waterproofing of wet zones, tile installation, cabinetry and carpentry, fixture installation, coordination of all trades, cleanup, and final inspections.
Beyond physical construction, a competent contractor handles permit applications, schedules municipal inspectors, orders materials with appropriate lead times, and provides warranty coverage on completed work. Bathroom renovation services typically include design consultation and professional installation, along with plumbing and electrical upgrades. In Vancouver, many homeowners look for bathroom renovation services that modernize older spaces. The contractor’s expertise directly affects project quality, safety, budget adherence, project timelines, and the long-term durability of every surface and system in the finished bathroom.
Vancouver-Specific Considerations
Vancouver’s wet climate makes moisture management a non-negotiable priority. Vancouver’s high humidity requires effective moisture management in bathroom renovations – waterproofing membranes, sealed shower pans, correct drainage slope, and high-CFM exhaust fans that meet local building standards to prevent moisture damage are essential, not optional upgrades, especially when planning shower renovations in North Vancouver’s coastal climate.
The City of Vancouver’s renovation requirements regulate when permits are needed. Changes to plumbing, electrical, or structural elements typically require a permit, while purely cosmetic updates may not. For condo and strata buildings, a parallel approval process adds complexity: strata council approvals, acoustic performance standards, restricted work hours, and elevator scheduling requirements.
Local labour costs also run 20–40% higher than the Canadian average for many trades, and older Vancouver homes (pre-1980 character homes) introduce challenges like out-of-code plumbing, potential asbestos, and hidden water damage. All of these factors make local experience a significant advantage in a contractor you’re evaluating.
Understanding these fundamentals explains why contractor selection has such a direct impact on renovation outcomes.
Why Choosing the Right Bathroom Renovation Contractor in Vancouver Matters
The Vancouver contractor you select is the single most important variable in determining whether your bathroom renovation will be safe, durable, completed on schedule, and finished within budget. Here’s what’s at stake:
- Project quality and craftsmanship – proper waterproof membranes, quality tile work, correct shower slope, and reliable plumbing and electrical installation
- Timeline control – skilled sequencing of trades, realistic scheduling, and proactive management of material lead times and inspections
- Budget management – transparent quotes, honest allowances, and documented change order processes that prevent cost blow-outs
- Waterproofing and moisture management – Vancouver’s climate demands strict compliance; leaks cause mold and structural decay
- Permit compliance and legal safety – unpermitted work risks enforcement action, insurance invalidation, and difficulty selling your property
- Trade coordination and clear communication – plumbers, electricians, tilers, and carpenters must work in the right sequence, and homeowners need consistent updates
- Long-term durability and value – a well-executed bathroom renovation in Vancouver can return approximately 65–75% of its cost in resale value
The lowest quote is not necessarily the best value. A significantly cheaper proposal often signals missing scope items, inferior materials, skipped waterproofing, or permit avoidance – all of which can cost far more to fix later.
Project Quality and Workmanship
Craftsmanship varies dramatically between bathroom remodelers. A skilled contractor ensures waterproofing is continuous across joints and transitions, tile is set with proper thinset coverage and consistent grout lines, and plumbing connections are pressure-tested before walls close up. These details are invisible once the bathroom is finished, but they determine whether your renovation lasts five years or twenty-five. Reviewing past projects and asking for references from similar bathroom renovations gives you the best window into a contractor’s actual workmanship standards.
Budget and Timeline Management
Effective budget management starts with a detailed, itemized quote that clearly separates labour, materials, permits, and contingency. Plan for an extra 15 to 20 percent for unexpected costs – renovation projects may uncover unexpected issues requiring change orders, such as hidden rot, outdated plumbing, or mold behind walls. A good contractor communicates these discoveries immediately and documents the cost impact before proceeding. On the timeline side, a standard mid-range full bathroom renovation in Vancouver typically takes 3–5 weeks from demolition to completion, while luxury or large ensuites may take 4–7 weeks or more, especially for more complex bath remodel projects with custom layouts.
Coordination and Communication
A bathroom renovation involves multiple trades working in tight coordination. Strong communication is essential for a positive renovation experience – you should know who your daily point of contact is, how updates are delivered, and what happens when the scope changes. Contractors who establish clear communication protocols before work begins tend to deliver smoother projects with fewer misunderstandings. This coordination extends to protecting the rest of your house during construction, managing debris removal, and maintaining a clean, safe worksite.
With these stakes clarified, here’s what to look for when evaluating specific contractors.
What to Look for in a Vancouver Bathroom Renovation Contractor
The following criteria form a practical evaluation checklist you can apply to any bathroom renovation contractor in Vancouver you’re considering.
Experience and Track Record
Verify that the contractor focuses on bathroom renovations rather than general repairs. Bathroom remodels require specific technical skills – wet zone waterproofing, ventilation design, tile complexity, and compliance with plumbing and electrical code in small, moisture-intensive spaces – that general handyman services don’t adequately cover. Contractors should have proven bathroom renovation experience focused on long-term durability.
Local Vancouver-area project knowledge matters significantly. A contractor who has worked across East Van, Kitsilano, the North Shore, and downtown condo towers will better anticipate the issues specific to your property type, including specialized bathroom remodels in North Vancouver’s older homes. Review a contractor’s portfolio to assess craftsmanship and style. Ask to see completed projects similar to yours in size, project type (ensuite, full bathroom, powder room, condo vs. house), and level of finishes. Years in business and project volume – dozens of completed bathroom renovations per year versus a handful – indicate stability and current expertise.
Credentials and Insurance Verification
Verify licenses, insurance, and business standing before hiring. Specifically:
- Business licensing: verify that the contractor has a valid local business license and current BC company registration
- Liability insurance: insurance coverage should include at least $2 million in liability insurance – liability insurance protects homeowners from property damage during projects. In Vancouver strata settings, this coverage level is often required before work begins
- Workers’ compensation: verify that the contractor carries active WorkSafeBC coverage. Workers’ compensation insurance is mandatory in many jurisdictions and protects you from liability if a worker is injured on your property
- Trade qualifications: plumbers and electricians must hold current licenses or Red Seal certifications. Waterproofing and tile installers should be familiar with recognized systems and warranties
- Bonding: bonding provides a financial guarantee that work will be completed. Check if the contractor is a member of recognized regional associations for standards
- Builder licensing: under BC’s Homeowner Protection Act, residential builder licensees should meet core competency requirements, including 24 months of residential construction management experience within the past five years
A valid contractor license shows compliance with applicable standards. Verify licenses and insurance before signing any contractor agreement.
Communication and Project Management
Investigate the contractor’s communication and project management abilities before committing. A good contractor should provide:
- A clear written scope explaining what is included and excluded (e.g., layout changes, structural modifications, moving plumbing lines)
- Realistic project timelines with buffer built in for inspections and long-lead materials
- A defined change order process documenting how unexpected issues are handled, who approves additional costs, and how extras are priced
- Post-project support terms including warranty coverage on workmanship, waterproofing, and fixtures, along with a clear process for addressing issues after completion
- Site protection and cleanup commitments, especially important for condo and strata renovations
These communication standards set the foundation for the specific questions you should ask during consultations.
Essential Questions to Ask Bathroom Renovation Contractors
Use this list during contractor consultations as a pre-hiring checklist. The questions are designed to reveal experience, professionalism, and potential gaps before work begins:
- How many bathroom renovations have you completed in Vancouver in the past year?
- Can you show examples of projects similar to mine in size, type, and finish level?
- Who will manage the project day-to-day, and what is your role versus subcontractors?
- Which trades will be involved (plumbing, electrical, waterproofing, tile), and are they fully licensed and insured?
- Do you understand City of Vancouver permit requirements for my scope of work?
- Will you pull all necessary permits and handle inspections?
- What exactly is included in your estimate – demolition, disposal, tile, vanity, fixtures, electrical, plumbing, waterproofing, painting, trim, cleanup?
- What’s excluded – structural changes, hidden water damage, moving supply or drain lines?
- How do you handle unexpected issues discovered during demolition (rot, mould, asbestos)? What’s your change order policy?
- What is your expected timeline from demolition to completion, and when can you start?
- How do you handle communication and progress updates? How often and by what method?
- What payment schedule do you require – deposit, milestones, final payment?
- What warranties or guarantees do you provide on materials, workmanship, and waterproofing?
- How will you protect the rest of my home or condo common areas, manage debris, and handle safety?
- Can you provide your insurance certificate and proof of business registration?
After collecting responses from multiple contractors, score each on local experience, clarity, completeness, and risk mitigation. Consult local references and track record to evaluate contractors. The answers to these questions will directly inform how you compare quotes – which is the next critical step.
How to Compare Bathroom Renovation Quotes in Vancouver
Collect multiple quotes to compare labor, materials, and timelines effectively. The key principle: compare scope, not just the total dollar amount. Two quotes might show similar pricing, but one may omit waterproofing, use lower-grade tile, or exclude permit fees.
A good contractor should provide detailed and itemized quotes. A comprehensive bathroom renovation quote should include line items for:
- Demolition and disposal
- Plumbing rough-ins and finish plumbing
- Electrical work and lighting
- Waterproofing (membrane, shower pan, moisture barrier)
- Framing or drywall modifications
- Tile installation (floor and wall)
- Vanity, cabinetry, and countertops
- Fixtures (toilet, faucets, shower hardware)
- Ventilation
- Painting and trim
- Labour and project management
- Permits and inspections
- Cleanup
- Contingency allowance for hidden work
Understand the distinction between an estimate (approximate ballpark), a quote (fixed price under defined scope), and a final cost (which may change with documented change orders). Obtain at least three detailed written estimates for comparison.
Warning signs: quotes that are unusually vague, significantly lower than competing proposals without clear explanation, missing invisible work like waterproofing or plumbing behind walls, or requesting large upfront payments beyond 10–20% of the total.
Quote Comparison Framework
| Quote Element | Contractor A | Contractor B | Contractor C |
|---|---|---|---|
| Demolition & disposal | Included / Excluded | Included / Excluded | Included / Excluded |
| Plumbing scope | Detail level | Detail level | Detail level |
| Electrical scope | Detail level | Detail level | Detail level |
| Waterproofing | Specified / Missing | Specified / Missing | Specified / Missing |
| Tile (type, area) | Specified | Specified | Specified |
| Fixtures & cabinets | Allowance / Specified | Allowance / Specified | Allowance / Specified |
| Permits & inspections | Included / Excluded | Included / Excluded | Included / Excluded |
| Timeline | Weeks | Weeks | Weeks |
| Payment schedule | Terms | Terms | Terms |
| Warranty | Terms | Terms | Terms |
| Use this framework to make an apples-to-apples comparison before moving to cost considerations. |
Bathroom Renovation Contractor Costs in Vancouver
Common Cost Factors
Contractor pricing in Vancouver varies based on multiple factors, and no single number applies to every project:
- Bathroom size – a small bathroom remodel, powder room, standard main bath, or master ensuite each has different material and labour requirements
- Renovation scope – cosmetic refresh versus full gut; bathroom renovations can involve full and partial remodels
- Material quality – ceramic tile versus large-format porcelain versus natural stone; standard versus premium fixtures
- Labour – Vancouver trade rates run significantly above national averages
- Plumbing and electrical – plumbing or electrical upgrades can cost between $500 and $3,000 depending on scope; moving supply or drain lines adds substantially
- Waterproofing – membrane systems, shower pans, correct slope, sealants, and vent fans
- Custom work – cabinetry, glass enclosures, in-floor heating
- Property type – condo renovations bring added logistic costs (elevator scheduling, hallway protection, restricted hours)
- Hidden conditions – underfloor rot, asbestos, old plumbing, mould
- Permits – permit fees in Vancouver for a mid-range bathroom renovation typically run $900–$1,300 depending on scope
As approximate 2026 planning guidance (homeowners should obtain project-specific quotes and review examples of professional bathroom remodels in Vancouver):
- Partial bathroom updates: between $2,000 and $5,000 for cosmetic refreshes without layout changes
- Small bathroom or powder room renovation: approximately $8,000–$18,000
- Standard mid-range full bathroom renovation: bathroom renovation costs in Vancouver range from $10,000 to $25,000, with many full renovations reaching $18,000–$35,000 depending on finishes, tile work, and fixture selections
- Master ensuite or luxury bathroom: high-end bathroom remodels can exceed $30,000, with many running $35,000–$65,000+ for premium finishes, freestanding tubs, and layout changes
- Full-gut custom luxury: $60,000–$100,000+ for major scope with structural changes and high-end materials
Common tasks include tile work, flooring, and fixture replacements. Accessibility modifications are often included in renovation services for aging-in-place projects.
Cost should never be the sole factor in selecting a contractor – the cheapest proposal often becomes the most expensive renovation.
Vancouver Bathroom Renovation Permit Requirements
Understanding permit requirements is essential because your contractor should be able to navigate this process confidently. Ask contractors for detailed knowledge on local permitting processes and inspections.
Most bathroom renovations require permits from the City of Vancouver when the scope includes:
- Moving or adding plumbing fixtures or supply/drain lines
- Electrical work (new circuits, lighting changes, GFCI outlets, exhaust fans)
- Structural modifications (removing or relocating walls, headers)
- Changes to building envelope or ventilation systems
- Work affecting fire separation
The City of Vancouver’s Residential Renovation Fast Track (RRFT) program can speed up permit approvals for eligible renovations under $250,000, which includes many bathroom renovation scopes involving plumbing or electrical changes.
The Vancouver Building By-law (2025) includes strict requirements for waterproofing membrane application: surfaces must be dry and clean, membranes continuous across joints, manufacturer instructions followed, and proper curing completed.
Not every renovation requires a permit. Cosmetic updates – paint, same-footprint fixture swaps, cabinet refacing – may be exempt. However, changing fixture locations, opening walls, or modifying electrical typically does require permit approvals.
For condo and strata units, City permits alone are not sufficient. Strata council approval through an Alteration Agreement is also required, with bylaws often mandating contractor insurance documentation, WorkSafeBC clearance, and adherence to building-specific guidelines, which seasoned home remodel contractors in Vancouver should be familiar with.
Establish who will handle permits and inspections in writing with your contractor before work begins. Requirements can vary between municipalities across Metro Vancouver, so verify current rules with the relevant municipal authority.
What Makes a Good Vancouver Bathroom Renovation Contractor Different
The difference between a professional remodeling company and a less organized contractor becomes apparent in how they plan, communicate, and execute. Companies built around trustworthy home improvement professionals and clear values tend to deliver more consistent experiences. Here’s what distinguishes contractors who consistently deliver quality results:
- Detailed planning – drawings, material specifications, finish samples, and a documented scope before demolition begins
- Transparent pricing – clear line-item quotes with specified brands, allowances, and no hidden costs
- Consistent communication – regular progress reports, a dedicated contact person, and a documented change order process
- Project management – skilled sequencing of trades, proactive schedule management, and contingency planning
- Waterproofing expertise – discuss waterproofing systems and moisture control strategies with your contractor; this is a primary focus in Vancouver bathroom renovations
- Local expertise – familiarity with Vancouver permit offices, strata rules, climate concerns, and older home conditions
- Quality control – adherence to local building standards, proper ventilation, moisture-resistant materials, and skilled tile installation
- Property respect – protection of floors, walls, and common areas; minimal disruption; thorough cleanup and debris removal
- Documentation – written contracts, proof of insurance, business registration, warranty documentation
- Post-project support – clear warranty terms on workmanship, follow-up for any defects, and responsive service after completion
These qualities connect directly to the homeowner’s actual experience – a renovation completed with pride, professionalism, and attention to detail.
Special Considerations for Condo and Strata Bathroom Renovations
Vancouver condo owners face additional requirements beyond municipal regulations that can significantly impact contractor selection, budget, and schedule, similar to the added considerations seen in house renovation projects in North Vancouver.
Common Condo Renovation Challenges
- Strata approval timelines – getting strata council approval can take 4–8 weeks or more, especially if documentation is incomplete or meetings are monthly
- Documentation requirements – strata corporations typically require contractor liability insurance certificates, WorkSafeBC clearance, detailed scope drawings, and signed Alteration Agreements before work begins
- Acoustic performance – strata bylaws often specify minimum IIC/STC sound transmission ratings (commonly 50–55+), requiring specific underlayment materials
- Work hour restrictions – many buildings limit construction to weekday daytime hours, extending project timelines
- Elevator and common area rules – elevator scheduling, hallway protection, damage deposits, and cleaning obligations add logistic complexity and cost
- Plumbing limitations – in older concrete towers, moving a drain or opening a slab may be prohibited or require expensive engineering approval
- Noise and neighbour considerations – demolition and construction noise must comply with building-specific rules
Verify whether contractors are experienced with strata bylaws for condos and townhouses – this experience can prevent delays, rejected applications, and costly compliance issues.
Contractor Condo Experience Benefits
A contractor familiar with the strata process can help homeowners avoid delays by submitting correct documentation on the first attempt. They understand how to coordinate with building management, follow site protection rules, and minimize disruption to neighbours. They also know which acoustic materials comply with common strata standards and can recommend solutions that meet bylaw requirements without unnecessary cost. For any condo bathroom renovation in Vancouver, strata experience should be a weighted factor in your contractor evaluation.
Red Flags When Hiring a Bathroom Renovation Contractor
Recognizing warning signs early can save you thousands of dollars and months of frustration. Watch for these red flags:
- No written contract or vague scope – ensure contracts include a clear scope of work and a payment schedule tied to milestones. Without this, you have no recourse if work is incomplete or substandard
- Extremely low quote without explanation – a price significantly below competing proposals usually means missing items, inferior materials, skipped waterproofing, or no permit costs. The savings disappear when problems surface
- Pressure to decide immediately – professional bathroom remodelers have enough confidence in their work to give you time to compare options
- Large upfront payment demands – avoid contractors demanding large cash deposits or high upfront percentages beyond 10–20% of the total. Milestone-based payments tied to actual progress protect both parties
- Unclear credentials – inability to provide proof of insurance, business registration, or trade licenses is a serious concern. If they can’t produce documentation, don’t proceed
- No verifiable references – unwillingness to share references or show case studies from past projects suggests either limited experience or unsatisfied clients
- Poor communication – vague timelines, slow responses, and reluctance to explain the process are reliable predictors of how the renovation will be managed
- Permit avoidance – claims that “permits are just paperwork” or suggestions to skip them put you at legal and financial risk. Unpermitted work can void insurance, trigger stop-work orders, and create problems when selling your property
Each of these red flags matters because it signals either a lack of professionalism or an approach that transfers risk from the contractor to you as the homeowner.
4 Local Homes: A Local Option for Vancouver Home Renovations
When evaluating bathroom renovation contractors in Vancouver, homeowners benefit from considering companies that demonstrate the qualities outlined throughout this guide – relevant experience, clear communication, detailed planning, trade coordination, and transparent pricing.
4 Local Homes is a local renovation company serving Vancouver-area homeowners that handles residential renovation projects from start to finish, including site evaluation, project planning, permit coordination, structural work, trade scheduling, and finish installation. Their service scope covers the kinds of integrated work that bathroom renovations demand: plumbing, electrical, demolition, framing, cabinetry, flooring, and finishes.
For homeowners looking for a team that can manage the full process of a remodeling project – from initial planning through completion – 4 Local Homes is one option worth exploring as part of your contractor evaluation. As with any contractor, verify their specific credentials, insurance, and relevant bathroom renovation experience directly before making a commitment.
How to Choose Between Multiple Bathroom Renovation Contractors
Once you’ve gathered consultations and quotes from several contractors, use this step-by-step process to make your final selection:
- Shortlist qualified contractors – narrow to 3 candidates who meet your baseline criteria for experience, credentials, and insurance
- Request detailed scopes – ask each for a written, itemized scope of work covering every phase from demolition to cleanup
- Compare inclusions and exclusions – identify what each quote covers and what it doesn’t, using the comparison framework above
- Verify credentials and insurance – confirm current business license, liability insurance, WorkSafeBC coverage, and trade qualifications for each finalist
- Review relevant project examples – examine their portfolio for completed bathroom renovations similar to yours in scope, property type, and finish level
- Assess timelines and schedule – compare proposed start dates, duration, and how each contractor accounts for inspections, material lead times, and potential delays
- Check references and Google reviews – speak with previous clients and read recent reviews for patterns in professionalism, communication, and quality
- Compare warranties and post-project support – understand what each contractor guarantees, for how long, and what the process is for addressing issues after completion
- Evaluate overall value – consider the full picture: scope, quality, communication, experience, and risk, not just the bottom-line price
- Choose with confidence – select the contractor you believe can deliver your project reliably, professionally, and with the level of craftsmanship your space deserves
| Evaluation Criteria | Contractor A | Contractor B | Contractor C |
|---|---|---|---|
| Bathroom renovation experience | |||
| Vancouver/local knowledge | |||
| Insurance & credentials verified | |||
| Scope completeness | |||
| Quote transparency | |||
| Timeline realism | |||
| Communication quality | |||
| References/reviews | |||
| Warranty terms | |||
| Overall value assessment | |||
| Pay attention to contractor experience with specific local building codes and regulations – this local expertise often makes the difference between a smooth renovation and one plagued by permit delays or compliance issues. |
Bathroom Renovation Contractor Selection Checklist
Save or print this checklist to reference before signing any contractor agreement:
- [ ] Relevant bathroom renovation experience verified
- [ ] Local Vancouver-area experience confirmed
- [ ] Appropriate credentials and insurance documented (minimum $2M liability, WorkSafeBC)
- [ ] Detailed written scope provided
- [ ] Transparent, itemized estimate reviewed
- [ ] Clear payment schedule tied to milestones
- [ ] Realistic timeline with buffer for unexpected issues
- [ ] Permit responsibilities clarified in writing
- [ ] Qualified, licensed trades identified for plumbing, electrical, and specialty work
- [ ] References contacted or project examples reviewed
- [ ] Warranty and workmanship terms understood and documented
- [ ] Communication process and update frequency established
- [ ] Change order process explained and agreed upon
- [ ] Cleanup, debris removal, and property protection confirmed
Conclusion and Next Steps
Choosing a bathroom renovation contractor in Vancouver involves far more than comparing prices. The right company combines relevant experience, transparent communication, detailed planning, qualified trades, realistic project timelines, and clear expectations – all grounded in genuine knowledge of Vancouver’s building requirements, climate challenges, and property types.
To move forward with your renovation:
- Research your options – identify 3–5 contractors with demonstrated bathroom renovation experience in the Vancouver area
- Request detailed consultations – use the questions and checklist in this guide to evaluate each candidate
- Compare qualified contractors – assess scope, value, credentials, and communication – not just price
- Verify everything – confirm insurance, licenses, references, and permit capabilities before signing
- Choose based on overall fit – select the contractor whose experience, approach, and commitment best match your project scope, budget, and vision
For Vancouver homeowners seeking professional renovation support, 4 Local Homes is a local company worth considering as you evaluate your options, particularly if you’re planning broader house renovation work in Vancouver alongside a bathroom remodel.
Whatever you decide, take the time to expect thoroughness from your contractor. A well-planned bathroom renovation – built on the right partnership – will transform your space with results that last. Request a detailed consultation, compare your finalists carefully, and hire the contractor who earns your peace of mind through professionalism, not just promises.
